The Other Side of Grief with Angie Smith

Today we’re talking to my friend Angie Smith about some stories I’m familiar with, but not everybody listening is. Can you take us back to Audrey’s pregnancy and talk a little bit about your story from that season?

It was 12 years ago which is really hard to believe. We were talking about that the other day. But the story is I was pregnant with my daughter Audrey, she would’ve been our 4th daughter, and we found out during our pregnancy that she had many issues that made her incompatible with life - that was the term they used. We ended up carrying her for several more weeks until she was passed viability - we just wanted to give her a shot. We were praying for a miracle. We did not get the miracle that we really wanted, but she lived for about 2.5 hours. It was one of the hardest times of my life, but she’s still such a part of our family. In fact, all the little neighborhood girls have combined the four family’s last names into “The Sneverks” and they were designing a big mansion/compound for the four families to live in, and they gave Audrey room. It’s so tender, but it’s really beautiful to see how much other people remember and include her. 

One of my good, good friends actually walked through this. I was with her the day her baby died and it reminded me of you. I feel like you have given so many people a picture into something that is often private and not talked about. We’re talking about being fragile in this time, and I know since then you’ve been through even more suffering. I want to know what that word fragile means to you. I think even back to your book cover of a broken china plate that was pieced back together. This is in image for you in your life.

It is! Fragile is a really good word to describe the last season of my life. I sort of use that term with my general life. What I’m seeing is that even when I feel like I’m doing really well, I still take a turn quickly. I was at Ulta yesterday, and I haven’t been out that much, and I was doing okay with the whole pandemic until then. My husband’s friend said the other day, “Angie, let’s be honest, you’ve been training for this for 44 years.” I like being home. I go to Ulta and everything is taped down and everyone has masks on. I feel like I’m always teetering on being broken and being whole. It feels like there’s sometimes a shift between those two things that I don’t even expect. My dad passed away which was part of what you were referring to earlier, and when I was in Ulta I was doing fine, but then what broke me was I saw a bottle of Alure perfume, which was the first perfume my dad ever bought for me. The smell broke me. I think there’s a different tenderness right now. Even in the moments when we feel like we’re doing fine, it could break at any time. I think a lot of people could say that right now. In an hour, you might get a totally different answer. 

You’re right. Some mornings I wake up and feel like I don’t have any bearings. I feel like I don’t have time and space. The other day I was telling my team I would talk to them in our staff meeting tomorrow, and it was Friday. Our staff meeting is on Tuesdays. I was 4 days off! I sound like a senial 85-year-old. It makes it all feel insecure and not solid. 

What’s funny is I think everyone is forgetting the days of the week. I did that today! I think that’s part of it. We’re all lost in space and time. I’m watching my dear neighbor put her kindergartner on the bus with a mask on! She hasn’t seen his classroom or even met his teacher! I know what her face looks like, but I’ve never met her. I tend to have depression and anxiety, and I always have. In this season, it’s been extremely difficult. I know I’m not the only one! It just feels like you can’t get your bearings and it makes you feel so unsteady. That feeling quickly turns to panic for me. 

Grief can give us those feelings too! It puts you in an alternate reality. I specifically think of my dear friend Cassidy who just had her one year anniversary of losing her baby. I want you to talk to women who have lost a child - looking back at that journey, what do you wish you could tell yourself back then?

I would tell myself that there is another side. You’re not going to be in this place forever. So for me, I would say at the time, it felt like it would never end. I felt like I would never recover. Grief is weird. I would tell myself that too. It isn’t a steady, linear journey. It’s unexpected. I have a friend that’s going through an incredibly difficult time and is getting a divorce. The other day was the anniversary of their engagement, and she told me, “I don’t think I even remembered the day I got engaged. I was prepared to grieve on our wedding anniversary, but I wasn’t prepared to grieve for this.” I think there are a lot of “engagements” in life. I think there are a lot of times we are prepared to grieve for situations like Christmas, weddings, whatever the thing is you know ahead of time. My dad always brought this old thing that turned the turkey all day and it squeaked, and I stood in the kitchen and it was so quiet. I would tell people who are grieving that it’s okay things are going to catch you off guard. It’s okay to grieve it if it’s 10 years or 5 minutes from now. It’s unpredictable. I think the things that sneak up are the ones that just gut me. But there is another side. I don’t feel the same way now as I did when I was in that situation. I’ve had the opportunity to counsel a lot of women who were in that and later they’ll come to me and say, “you were right. There is another side. And I’m going to keep telling people that.” I’m still standing! Nothing replaces Audrey, but we’ve had another daughter since then. It feels different now. She’ll always be a part of our lives and our story, but that moment doesn’t last forever. When I was with my friend who was crying about her engagement anniversary, I said, “this is the last time you’re going to have to do the first one.” The first anniversary or marker is always the hardest. I remember even the smell of the perfume of the nurse who was taking care of me took me off guard. I would just say it’s okay when you feel things sneaking up on you. You’re going to have to grieve up and down. It’s just a roller coaster. But it feels different now, and I know when I was in the situation, it was good to hear that from other women. I’m not 100% sure I believed it, but there is another side. 

But it was a rope to you! You could hold onto that rope when you’re still in the pit and hope that it’s true and real. It might not yank you up, but it’s at least some hope of something on the other side. I want to talk about how we love people through this, because I know I’ve been with you when people have said things that were just so unhelpful. I wanted to protect you from that! But let’s talk about how we love people better in suffering. It’s scary for some people! They’re intimidated to lean in, but it’s when people need to come around you the most. 

Yep. That’s exactly what I would say happened. I should also say, I don’t think I’ve done this at IF, but at Women of Faith, in an arena, I will say, “if you have ever miscarried, lost a child, had an abortion, whatever way, just stand up.” It’s usually like half the arena. I think that’s part of it too. Remembering you’re not alone in this. It can feel really lonely, and part of that is people don’t know how to rally around people well in suffering. Suffering is so uncomfortable. People are scared they might say or do the wrong thing. I would much rather people just say direct things than beat around the bush. I wanted to hear her name. Anyone that’s gone through this will say that speaking their name is honoring them. Being brave enough to push past what you think is appropriate. There is a big gap between what you might be doing and what they really need. Also, I hope that people who are listening understand that sometimes the way you live out the gospel is not by sitting and reading Bible verses to someone. I think there’s a lot of that. People know that’s true, but when you’re going through suffering, you just want someone else to acknowledge that it’s crappy. Even just sitting with someone in their grief and being present in a way that shows them you’re with them. It’s natural to not know what to do. But there’s also just stuff that’s practical. You’re not going to fix this, but you can bring dinner. We have to release ourselves from the feeling that we have an obligation to fix things. We just have to want to enter into the process. It’s hard to sit and not try to fix. My heart also just bleeds for people who have gone through it and are going through it, because it’s a hard journey.

Let’s talk about Seamless. I loved that study. And now Matchless! Do you remember one of the first times we met and you said you would never touch Bible studies. You said something like that! You weren’t going to go there. Angie, these are amazing. God is using both of these studies so powerfully. Talk just a little bit about your vision for these studies and what God is teaching you.

If I were to say I struggle with one thing regarding the gospel, it’s eternity. Is there really an eternity? There’s just no way to touch it or see it. Part of what I loved when I was writing it Seamless is you start to see the way the Old and New Testaments are connected. I think there’s a gap in our education about scripture as far as the way that it really is one story. You start looking and you realize things that happen in the New Testament were prophesied hundreds of years ago. That doesn’t happen by fluke. I started saying to myself, “if I believe all of this, then I’ve got to believe the rest of it.” I’ve lost in the last year or so my father, who was my hero, and then two months later I lost my grandma. I think sometimes when you’ve gone through death that way, there’s a part of you that thinks, am I really ever going to see that person again? Are they just gone to me forever? In days that I really feel troubled, I pray constantly that I would have faith in eternity. Maybe faith isn’t the right word, but maybe just live like I really believe in eternity. It’s so obscure. We can’t put our hands on it. We’re talking about grief, suffering, and sorrow, and it’s such a mystery. I feel like when you grieve well, you grieve believing the promise that it isn’t the end. Where I get stuck is when I don’t believe that promise. Especially in this season when everything feels so upside down, we need to have our eyes looking forward. But it’s so hard because we’re stuck right here,

It’s literally the thing that is our hope. It’s Jesus forever. I’m with you. Jesus and his evidence of life on earth, his resurrection, I totally believe. That should be evidence of our future and our resurrection, but he didn’t spell out every detail. He didn’t tell us, when you close your eyes, this is going to happen. I think that part is hard for people who are really being honest. And for those of us who really think about it a lot. That is something I do think about an unusual amount. I think about death more than most humans. I’m sure you do too with all the things you’ve been through.

Right, and it’s a good thing to bring up now. Everyone wants to live walking through whatever we’re walking through with confidence of our hope, so much so that the trials and hardships don’t even affect me. I remember when my dad was really sick and I went to Target and of course I was trying to organize their house because it had gotten really bad, so I had all these bins. This poor woman at the checkout goes, “are you organizing?” I don’t know why, but I just started crying. This woman probably thought I was psycho. I just looked at her and said, “my dad is dying and I don’t know how to deal with it.” She literally leaned across the counter and she said, “baby, listen to me. We’re just passing through.”

God gave you a little preacher! 

Then she asked what his name was so she could pray for him. I don’t want it to be over, so I’m grabbing gum at the register! I pray for those moments where God uses people. I also got pulled over a mile from there right after I left, and of course I lost it again. He said, “how can I pray for you?” WIthin a 15 minute time span, two strangers asked. I pray for those things. There are so many people around us who believe so much that their first reaction to a stranger is, “we’re passing through.” That kind of faith to say those words and those moments are when I believe it’s real. I think those moments move me to a different hope in eternity. I borrow other people’s hope sometimes.

That’s what scripture tells us to do! I walked through that intense season of doubt for 18 months and everybody asked, “when you look back at that, were you being a hypocrite?” I always say, “no, I was borrowing people’s faith.” The evidence of faith is the evidence of things unseen. Tim Keller was in my ears the whole time because I had to hear somebody that’s smart tell me over and over again that this is true. I think that’s okay! It’s wisdom. We look for the ways we can see God in the people around us. 

I think too if we pray for that he’ll provide it. He’s done that for me many times.

So the new Bible study is Matchless. Talk a little bit about your passion for that.

Well, it’s about Jesus. The heart of the project is I think you can know all of the facts of scripture without understanding the story of Jesus. I felt like there are all these under-stories that you might miss the symbolism or the way things are woven together. Even just who he was as a person on earth. I started writing and I would just cry. I got to the part where he was in the temple and he was 12 and Mary knows she’s going to have to release him. A lot of times we read that and we don’t think about the fact that maybe Jesus had ear infections, Jesus fell down, he probably ran to his dad when he got home, he played with his friends outside. Mary is remembering all of those things. It’s easy for us to tell the story without really processing what’s underneath it. That was my hope with this study. There also is just a knowledge piece of the study too. For the majority of my Christian life I thought the gospel writers, all 4 of them, just hung out with Jesus. I thought they were all disciples. One likely never even met him! I don’t think the average person has processed those kinds of details. I’ve always felt like there’s so much power in knowledge. It’s powerful to understand things like that. To have that “oh!” moment is powerful. There’s no way these things happened by chance, and the more you dig into it, the more you understand it would be impossible for it not to be true. 

I think of the way you view it all - it’s why I’ve always wanted to be in a corner with you. You think about all these deep things. For you it’s simple. It’s complicated and detailed, but it’s just who he is and how he works. You don’t fake it and you don’t complicate it. That’s why people are so drawn to your teaching. Somebody said this about Max Lucado and I think it’s true of you too, “it’s the cookies on the bottom shelf.” But those are good cookies - complicated, awesome cookies that show the beauty of God, and it’s for every person. That’s you and that’s your story. You found God later in life and you remember that feeling. 

Right, that’s exactly it. In my Bible study, in a million other Bible studies, with a million other teachers, the whole point of what we’re saying is this is for everyone! The gospel was not for scholars only or teachers only. We get to use our voices to say, “this is for you!” We’re all in this. You can understand this. You can do this. I feel like the more you get into scripture and the more you start to connect things, your relationship with Jesus changes. I love the opportunity to help people understand that. 

Before we go, I want you to imagine that person, because they’re out there listening right now, their world is spinning, they can’t find their bearings, and they feel like they might break at any moment. What would you say to them?

Well first of all I would acknowledge I think that’s a reasonable place to feel right now. I think for each of us, there’s something we will cling to. I would say fight to push past what you’re feeling and get to someone or something that is going to minister to you. Where I’ve seen a lot of depression and anxiety come in is I try to hold myself up. Whatever it is in front of you that you can’t push past, ask the Lord to help you do it. It’s so easy to be stuck. I know there are also days where you don’t get out of bed, and that is reasonable, but also not something you need or want to stay in. Ask for help. The biggest thing for me is I’ve pushed past what’s comfortable and what I think is possible. I’m thinking of myself as one of those women, and I have a lot of empathy. Like I said before, there is another side to this. It isn’t going to be exactly this way forever. What we said about borrowing hope and people’s faith - I think we can pray for opportunities for people and friends to speak into you. I have friends that I’m around and they’ll say something to me and it changes me! Their belief helps me. That’s something I pray for and the Lord honors, especially now. 

It’s just part of the journey in faith! There are a few people who maybe never, ever question or doubt, but I do think it’s part of faith. 

Those people are called liars! There can’t be one moment where you don’t question - just for a moment.

I know! Why don’t we talk about these things? It would make everybody feel more sane. Tim Keller talks about it! I listened to him during my season of doubt and he reminded me that people doubt. It’s a sign of faith. 
100%. If you think about Thomas, that always makes me feel better. He doubted because he wanted to believe so much. Even now, in this season, if you’re struggling, you’re fighting for the truth. The doubt is representative of the want to believe so much. 

Exactly! And if we feel shame about it, the doubt can grow. We need each other to help us through!