Let's Talk Politics with Rev. Eugene Cho
Today you’re getting to hear another sneak peek from IF:Lead 2020! This episode is an interview I did with Rev. Eugene Cho on politics. Make sure to check out his new book Thou Shalt Not Be a Jerk: A Christian’s Guide to Engaging Politics - we need it for this election year! You can also head over to iflead2020.com and check out the rest of the talks from IF:Lead 2020!
There are all kinds of loaded things happening day by day during this election year and as leaders, it is our hope that you would navigate that well. I've invited a good friend here to discuss how we do that. Eugene Cho - we are so glad you’re here! Let’s talk about what you see culturally happening right now. What is this moment that we find ourselves in? You know, obviously we've talked a lot about COVID, but specifically to do with politics and division and online life.
Well, let me first take a step back and say that I can't claim to be an expert on faith and politics. I wrote this book because I struggle with this. It's a confession that I need to, on a regular basis, claim my allegiance to Jesus and the kingdom of God. But I also acknowledge that politics really matter and we’ll get to that conversation. But a couple of things stand out to me during this time, as you noted it's election season, and it always gets crazy. But I think we have to acknowledge that in the last 20 years, particularly in the United States, ideas about polarization demonization, and this outrage culture, that's been brewing within our larger culture, it is at an all time high. I hear so many people that do faith and politics share with me that they haven't experienced anything like this in their decades of service. So it's hard for us to point fingers, but we know that we're living in some incredibly tense and difficult times. As followers of Jesus, we have to acknowledge it and be careful that we're not necessarily drinking the Kool Aid of our larger culture, meaning we're not contributing to the chaos, but trying to maintain a spirit of both peace, mercy and justice, faith, hope and love in the midst of all of this.
I'm still gonna call you an expert because I have seen you do this so well, Eugene. I do not go on Twitter anymore for a lot of reasons, personally, it is not a healthy place for me, but I've kept my account. If you go back through my tweets in the last year, you're one of the only people I've retweeted. I think it's because you have represented for me this balance of truth and grace, but also you're not afraid to speak out. I think that's where I pray that people would find my voice is that I'm going to speak justice and truth, and I'm not going to back down from that. But hopefully I do it in a way that's loving. That's what we all aspire to do. At least I should say, hopefully we all aspire to do it that way, but why is it so hard? It is so hard.
I think right now the currency in our culture is fear and frenzy. That's the currency that sells so much. A lot of our social media and our larger news platform, and I'm not trying to paint a broad stroke around all things media and journalists, because we need them. We pray for our journalists regularly. But it just seems as if that's what gets people to respond in some way. So as we're talking about politics, and as we dive into this conversation, it's not just the, “what we should be talking about as Christians,” because we have to also elevate the, “how you do those things.” Both really matter. Whatever policies or conversations we’re having, we need to be informed on the what, but if we compromise the how, our integrity, our character in that process, it takes away from the credibility and the robustness of what we're also speaking of. Now, as Christ followers, and I'm specifically using that phrase. We're not cultural Christians, we're Christ followers, our master and Lord is Jesus Christ. So there is that additional burden for us to represent Christ during this contentious crazy time in our larger culture.
I see a lot of anger and I see a lot of fear from Christians. Where are we specifically as Christinas living in fear?
I think you've named that fear as a real thing, but I would like to give Christians a little grace and say, it's not just Christians. It is the larger culture. It’s all of us. I think if I can be candid, I think we're kind of flunking this current cultural test, and because you and I are Christ followers, our tendency is that while we also have much affirmation for the church, because we love the church, we also have high standards for the church. I think that's not a bad thing. We have to have high standards and to convey that, not with fear, not with guilt, not with shame, but because we love the church we want more for the bride of Christ. So I'm right there with you. There are times I do share the sense of disappointment and I want my sisters and brothers in Christ to model what it means to live out in the public sphere, with more kindness and grace and civility. But it's a conversation that we can't avoid. This is what I'll say: we all know that our culture is broken. Part of our Christian theology is we say that the world is fallen and broken. I would say amen to that. That means all parts of our culture are fallen and broken. That's you that's me. It's our marriages, our homes, our churches. So in some ways it makes sense that our political process and our government is also very broken. As a result, we can respond in a couple of ways. We can altogether abandon politics and say, “oh, this is too scary. It's too cynical. I'm going to abandon it altogether.” or we make this our ultimate obsession. It becomes our idolatry. Some Christians might not want to admit that, but I do believe that for some we've made it the idolatry, the ultimate truth, or the ultimate answer to all things. Now, I believe you have to avoid both of those things. We can't abandon politics and we can't pledge our ultimate allegiance. Politics is not the way the truth and life. It's one way, a significant way, for us to live out our faith.
That's so good. So you do believe that we should engage in politics, but how do we make those decisions on a daily basis, whether to speak out about something or not? I think there's a pressure that a lot of people feel to speak out about everything, or maybe they just enjoy doing it. I don't know, but I do think sometimes we're not using discernment as to when and how we speak out.
Absolutely. I think discernment and wisdom are things that we should be praying about on a regular basis. Obviously politics matter. I know it's a scary word when people hear that word, but politics is a fairly general word that describes governance. Any healthy society that desires to be healthier is going to engage in politics and government. Even conservative Christians believe that God instituted three things: family, church, and government. So we shouldn't be afraid of politics. But I think what you mentioned that is so important is that we're in this frenetic culture where there's pressure constantly to speak up. I just want to remind myself to breathe. Sometimes I want to remind others to breathe. The world, including our country, our city, our nation, all justice issues, it doesn't hinge on me and you. So we have to breathe for a moment and just soak that in. Even if there's pressure, we need to really utilize the gifts that we have in the spirit for wisdom, discernment, scripture, prayer, community, and not necessarily always feel like we have to jump onto the bandwagon of whoever says the loudest or whoever says the quickest is the one who wins. Sometimes it feels like that's what our larger culture tends to elevate.
I think back to decisions where I have been very clear I'm supposed to speak up. Usually that's clear to me, and the reason that's clear to me is I have read significant amounts on that subject. I have talked to people on opposing sides about that subject. It's very clear to me because I've been somewhat educated on that subject. So I know I have something to say about this. I think what scares me is that we're all speaking without those principles of just having some basic understanding about the other side, which I think is essential. Then also being educated on the subject in our real lives. Not just a news story from that day. There are people that this affects and has affected whatever the subject is. So how do we do this in an educated way? What would you say are your principles before you speak?
In my new book, Thou Shalt Not Be a Jerk, I confess a grave mistake that I made. It was hard to make that apology, but you know, about two years ago, I jumped to conclusions, and made a heaping judgment on some young men that were part of an event in DC. I don't have to go into all the details, but I realized that I had jumped into the frenzy of activity without really knowing the full story. I basically passed some harsh judgments on these young men. Now I could have just deleted my tweets and just disappeared for a couple of days, but I felt it was also really important to own up to the fact that I made a mistake and that I need to not just make a private, but a public commitment to be better and to do better. We're all going to make mistakes. We just are. We're all going to make mistakes. But I think as a culture, we're in fear of judgment. That's the reason why we're so quick to jump and make statements because we're afraid to be judged by our silence. I think we have to realize that yes, speaking up is courage, but I think we have to also add a different nuance to that. I think being quiet and silent and willing to acknowledge that you're not necessarily an expert on all things takes courage too. Our culture basically demands everyone speak up on every single issue. The other thing that I would say is it's not rocket science. It’s prayer, discernment, being informed, taking the time to breathe, and realizing that my competition isn't the internet. That's not who I'm competing against. Sometimes if I'm being candid, there are times I feel that there's this cloud of competition about who is the loudest, who's the woke-est, who's the most just, who's the most Holy, whatever the blank might be. So I want to remind myself that my ultimate allegiance is to be faithful to Jesus. Therefore, there are going to be times where I will feel convicted to speak up. There are times I have to acknowledge that I need to listen to others, even if I may disagree with them. Going back to this whole politics conversation, the reason why it matters so much, it's not the ultimate answer, but it matters because politics informs policies that impact people. The last time I read the Bible, God cares about people, especially those who are oftentimes overlooked and marginalized in our larger culture and society. I think in those regards, we as Christians have a particular conviction to speak up on behalf of those who are unjustly seen in our larger culture in society.
I want to talk about relationships, because I know this is something in the book that you mentioned as well. Coming to the table and breaking bread together. Talk about how that role can play a part in shaping not being a jerk because I have seen that in my own life again and again. As understanding has increased, my anger has decreased about different issues.
I think as Christians, the book isn't license for us to be soft or passive or to not care about certain things. But I think we have to debunk this myth that you can't do both. That you can't pursue justice and be a person of deep conviction and be fierce and at the same time to be both gentle and Christ-like. We can do both of these things at the same time. I think Jesus models it!
I want you to say that again. I literally want you just to repeat it because I want everyone to hear what he just said. I think it is the key to us going forward. We have to believe this. Say it one more time.
Well, for a second, I thought you were going to rebuke me. I was so scared. We can be both just, fierce, brave, courageous, pursue convictions, embody convictions, and simultaneously at the same time, be gentle, be civil, be respectful, and to honor Christ in the what and the how. Both of those really matter. I think we should just acknowledge that’s really hard. It's a daily commitment. It's not something that you just say, “I'm doing this!” It’s that confession of accepting Jesus as Lord in the same way that I made a decision to follow Jesus at the age of 18. I rest in God's grace, but every single day, I have to choose to make Jesus my Lord and to follow Christ every day. So I think that's in all spheres of my life, including political engagement. Now, let me just go a little deeper and say we have to revisit Jesus' teaching about what it means to love our neighbor. To love our neighbor doesn't mean that we're simply called to respect and to be kind to those who look like us, think like us, feel like us, and worship like us. Let me just go there, because this is going to be really hard. Even those who vote like us. And that's where the rubber meets the road. Because I think for some of us, even in the church, we've bought into the lie that people that don't align with the red or the blue or our political affiliation are lesser than in some way and they deserve some sort of abusive behavior. We have to not only model a different path, but I think in love, we have to speak against that kind of behavior within the church and our larger culture as well.
Doesn’t that go back to idolatry? Because basically, we're idolizing our party and believing that that is the hope. Therefore, if you're against it, you are against God, in some ways.
I think we live in this constant binary worldview that is one or the other, oftentimes both in the church and larger culture. I hear people asking me, “are you for me or are you against me? Are you an ally or an enemy? Are you this or that?” I think in many ways, that was the question that was posed to Jesus constantly by religious authority and by government authority during his time as well. I think he navigates a different path about this kingdom theology, this kingdom vision. Again, I'm not an expert because there are times I mess up along the way. But going back to conversations and relationships, I want to make this very clear. You cannot love your neighbors if you don't know your neighbors. Everything outside of that is theological gymnastics. To reference a sociological survey that was done after Michael Brown's death in Ferguson. There was a survey and it wasn't necessarily comprehensive, but it was a survey of relationships that Americans had in this country, white Americans, black Americans, the Latino community and Asian Americans. What it showed us is that all of us are living in our insular bubbles, particularly white Americans. So here we are having conversations on this matter about racial injustice and racial reconciliation. We're having these conversations that impact policies and people that are really complex, hard, painful, raw, vulnerable conversations. But we don't know people at all. So what shapes us? Social media shapes us and the larger media, that oftentimes I think runs on the currency of fear, that's what shapes us. So think about this. When was the last time your view on a critical matter was actually changed by someone's outrage on social media? It's really, really rare. I've not experienced it personally. So Jesus performs amazing miracles. We can do an entire podcast galore on justice miracles. In my opinion, the part about Jesus that most fascinates me and humbles me, is that Jesus, the son of God, God incarnate in the flesh, comes to us in flesh and bone and he chooses to break bread with people he was not supposed to break bread with. That's counter-cultural, it's subversive, it's the kingdom of God. I know what cynics are going to say. I know they're going to say, “you know what? That's just really small in the larger sea of all the complex policies and discussions and laws”. I get that. But I think we're dismissing how important these relationships really are.
I really believe it is the issue from the top to the bottom. From the church to the White House. People have got to be in relationship. You cannot help or have empathy for people you do not know. I remember my son was in fifth grade and he came home from school and my husband and I are fairly independent politically, and we don't necessarily associate with one party. So he comes home and he decides he's going to be Republican. He announces he’s a Republican and he's in fifth grade. I said, “Well, buddy, let me just say our friends, the Cooks, we're going to go visit them because they do a lot of relationships. They live in this part of town and a lot of their neighbors and a lot of their friends are on welfare. I want you to meet the moms that depend on welfare to survive.” As a parent, it was that feeling of, okay, if you choose that, you've got to know the cost of that. I'm not saying you can't be Republican or you can't be a Democrat. I'm just saying, let's understand that there's a human cost to all the issues. As Christians, we're supposed to be loving humans. So is there a way to have a perspective that maybe our policy ends up landing in this camp, but we have to realize that there are many, many people watching us fight for this camp that feel completely unseen by us. You know, let's go with abortion. Obviously I'm pro-life, but I have several friends and have had hundreds of young women come up to me after a talk or in a church and confess an abortion with tears in their eyes. So we can't just have that conversation out of the context of real life people that I know and love that have walked through something. So while we're yelling at each other and picketing and all this, there's got to be more compassion. I just could not agree with you more Eugene, that we've got to be having these conversations. Until we look at somebody in the eyes and see their tears and understand the cost of immigration issues and even work issues and losing jobs, we won’t understand. But it's hard to do. The media is not helping. Let's talk about that too because the media confuses us. I don't know that it's helping push the conversation along in a helpful way.
I think the media, because it is a business model, they're doing what they're doing. What I would suggest is that we have to be careful about making sure that our consumption of information is not just purely on media. I want to be careful not to just vilify all media and all journalists. I think they're trying to do their part. Along the way they realize, this is also a business and we can sell a lot of ad money. If we look at maybe a hundred yard football stadium, it tends to amplify the 15% on the extremes of every issue. There's a lot of healthy, I think, honest conversations that are happening in the middle as well that also are sometimes misrepresented. I'm not trying to demonize some of our Christian spokespeople, but when media go to certain folks and call them representatives of the church, the church is much more broad, much more diverse than we could possibly ever imagine. Going back to this conversation about relationships, I think to myself that one of the most scandalous images of the church, the part that I love about church for me, is the Eucharist table. It's the communion table. The reason why it's so beautiful for me as a pastor is I can always believe and trust that even if the sermon was bad, even if the announcements were a little off, even if worship was just a little off key, I always knew that our worship service would end in the climax at the Lord's table as we reminded people of the good news that Jesus Christ is Lord and savior. I love that image. At our church, we serve communion every single Sunday. So when people come up, especially in the last few years, I had to remind my own congregation that we don't have a line on the right that serves juice for our conservative voters. We don't have a line on our left that serves wine for our progressive voters. And we don't have a line in the middle with the gluten free option for our soft independence. There's something about the Eucharist table that says it welcomes all. The blood of Christ is able, despite all of our gray and complex views differences, it's able to unify us in some way. It's the only hope, in my opinion, that we have in the church to experience some semblance of unity in the midst of so much chaos and brokenness in our world.
I would call myself an optimist. Because I've seen walls fall down, because I've seen unity happen in rooms and at tables. Big unity. Like these two people are enemies online and they'd come to a table and all of a sudden they're crying and talking about their kids. I've just seen it happen. I believe in it. I want you to speak to those that are cynical, that feel like we just have to grin and bear it the next few months and get through this and get to the other side. Maybe then the church will come back together. Because guess what guys? Four years from now, we'll be right back here. I think we've got to have a greater hope than just getting through this. So speak to the cynic.
It's probably not exactly what you're looking for. I'm going to give you my honest answer. I think it's a reminder that there's hope, but we also have to be realistic as well. Let me talk about the realistic portion first. When Jesus joins us as baby Jesus here on this earth 2000 years ago, I don't want to “Disneyize” the cultural context in which Jesus enters the world. It was brutal. This Roman empire was spreading its power all around the earth. We obviously know about King Herod and the massacre that he initiates over baby boys. I think about the fact that there were 400 years of mostly waiting and silence. No prophets, no prophetic word, no words that necessarily hope. The tension between Jews and Gentiles were so stark and divisive. The reason why I mentioned this is Jesus chooses by God's sovereignty to enter the world during the darkest hour. During that time he brings hope and light. If we look around us, I think we have to be realistic. We can't have a faith that's naive and just simply say, I'm going to have a fatalistic faith that longs for that one day when Jesus will return. But in the same way that Jesus entered the world at that time, the good news for us is that Jesus has never left. He's still here right now, working even in ways that we can't fully comprehend and understand. So our calling and privilege as Christ followers is how do we partner with Jesus during this time of ongoing waiting? There was a theologian from, I believe the early 1900s, and he gave us this really important theology called “a kingdom here and not yet.” That phrase speaks so much to the reality of the tension that we live in. Do we believe that the kingdom is here? Yes. God's reign is here, but we also believe that there will come a future time when God's reign will be complete. So in the meantime, our hope is in the truth that Jesus is who he says he is. He's going to return one day to restore all things. But until then, we're not called to escape. We're not called to be naive. We're called to simply make sure, particularly in politics, that our allegiance is not to a political party and it's not to a powerful politician. The question that people often ask me is pastor Eugene, are you a Republican or a Democrat? I respectfully say, what are we talking about? On what issue? As if to think that one party is able to encapsulate the kingdom of God. My hope is in the fact that in the midst of a broken world, I believe that Jesus has never left us. He's here working behind the scenes and we should never be in this kind of Elijah complex where we think to ourselves, “am I the only one?” There are so many people trying as best as we can leaning on God's grace to be merciful, just, compassionate, and righteous. We believe that Jesus will return one day to restore all things.
Eugene, you are talking to a lot of those people. I just want to honor the people that are a part of this community, because I have seen again and again, you are bold and you are humble. I'm just grateful for you guys. I hope that this is equipping you in how to go and do this these next couple of months that will be hard and intense. I do believe though, that there is a way that we can navigate it. This is a work in progress for all of us and it's okay. We're not going to do this perfectly, but we still do it. We walk forward as humbly as we can, depending on the spirit all the way, all the while, learning, having conversations, being in relationship, and keeping as close as we can to the word of God. I love how you do that. Eugene, thank you so much for being here.
