Is God Real? With Julie Manning
One of my friends, Julie Manning, should have the most anxiety out of anyone I know. She could have a heart attack at any moment. At any point, her heart can just stop working. She carries around nitroglycerin in case something happens. Despite all this, she is the most peaceful friend I have. She has chosen a different way to live, and I brought her on the podcast to tell you all about that.
Okay, Julie, let's go back. First of all, I want to tell everybody, we were sitting here eating sushi at my kitchen table a minute ago and Chloe looks at me and says, “so your next guest is at the door right now” And I was like, what? Julie is one of my very best friends and I left her in Austin when moved to Dallas. And today she showed up at my door! She is the best surprise ever. Unannounced guests is one of my love languages. It makes me really happy. So we're gonna talk though about your life and your perspective. Let's start with when did you find out you had a heart condition?
I found out that my heart was not functioning normal about 10 years ago. I was giving birth to our second son Hunter and during the C-section, I went into a really bad heart rhythm and thankfully I came out of that spontaneously. But it led to a lot of blood workup and testing and things like that on my heart. The day of his birth, everything checked out fine. But six weeks later I was in full blown heart failure where we were talking about if I don't get stabilized on medications, what does it look like to get a heart transplant? A few weeks later, I was going in for a heart procedure because my heart rhythm was still not in a good spot, and this surgery would help and get rid of it. I basically stopped breathing and had to be shocked a few times to be brought back. And so I woke up with burn marks on my chest from the defibrillator. That really shocked me and my life changed at that moment.
So Julie, at that point, tell me what was going through your mind. You have a brand new baby, your second. What were your fears? What were you thinking when they told you all of this?
My first reaction was, are we really talking about me? I had always been very competent, very driven, very achiever like and also had a background of taking care of children who have hearts that were not formed normally. So I was already working in pediatric cardiology and I was in an ICU setting. For a split second I thought, we're not talking about me, we're talking about one of my patients. And then I sit down in a chair and I'm like, no, this is my heart, my life, my family, my children that I'm staring at. At the time, Noah was 20 months old, Hunter was six weeks old and I didn't know if I'd see them go to kindergarten. It was that type of moment.
The doctors even kind of alluded to you might not see them go to kindergarten. They said this is life expectancy.
Yeah. I mean, once your heart is damaged and my heart had been damaged as an adult, you don't really create new heart cells. They are what they are. And so medicine helps to stabilize them. But at that point in time, we didn't know if medicine would help or if I would continue to get worse. I mean, when you're labeled at risk for dying, suddenly you kind of know that, okay, well a heart only beats so many times in a lifespan. My heart has just gotten damaged. So what does that look like for me? I look back now and I'm like, Oh gosh, I got 10 years and I'm like, maybe I have another 10 years. I don't know. You know? But it also took a journey to realize that God's the one that causes my heart to beat and my life is not my own. And he's the one that defines the length of my life. And God has given me peace with that. It took a while to get there, but God's given me peace with that.
So for perspective, for all of you, Julie wears a medical bracelet. Her kids know how to call 911. There is a reality to your life that all of us think about occasionally, but we don't think about it every time we're with you. But there is a reality to your life that every day is a gift. And I know you feel like that should be how all of us live. You know you’re on borrowed time. But we’re all on borrowed time.
Yeah, everyone is. My life is no different than anyone else’s
So fast forward, that was in the end of the story. At that point, you started medicine, you started treatment, and then let's talk about what happened next.
Goodness. Those next few months, I fell into the place of darkness and depression, one that I hid. I even hid it from my husband. I felt like I shouldn't be struggling with these what ifs. I shouldn't be struggling with pushing the kids down the street in a stroller. What if I collapsed there and what happens to them or is this the last time I'm going to see John when he walks out the door to work? I went down and spiraled down the “what if circle” and that led to darkness and led to me staring at my Bible on my bedside table versus actually reading it.
Why do you think that was your reaction?
I think because I knew I should have been reading it, but I didn't want to. I wanted to just sit there for awhile
Y’all this from my friend who texts me every single morning, including Sundays, with a passage of scripture she's reading that day. So I'm kind of in shock Julie, cause I didn't know this Julie!
Well, I need it now. What God showed me in that season, looking back in hindsight, is that even when I wasn't pursuing after God, he was pursuing after me. He has used friendships, and this was really before the iphone. More people left notes on our doorstep or wrote emails. My friends were the ones that were sharing scripture with me vs. me pursuing after it. So I really look back and I see God pursuing me through the use of my friends and our community at that time who were loving on us and wanted to point me to truth. Even when I felt like I was in a dark hole, my eyes were closed and it was just dark. My friends sending me scripture was a way to get made to start to open my eyes and to look for light in the dark places.
So there was a really present fear of death.
Oh yeah, yeah, I was, I was afraid that if I were to fall asleep at night, I wouldn't wake up in the morning. That was very real then.
Okay, let's go forward 15 months later.
So I'll back up a little bit. You know, it's Christmas time and everybody sends out these Christmas cards and John says, well, why don't we write a Christmas letter this year since everything has been going on? So I thought, I’ll try to pull out my inner humor, and kind of make light of this. I wanted my friends to know everything is okay. We're in a better place. When I wasn't, I was totally lying. He looked at the letter that I wrote and he just closed the computer and said, that's not it. I got really mad and I just remember being frustrated because I knew he was right and I knew I wasn’t and I needed to be honest and open with friends about where I was and what had happened and how we're doing as a family. I didn't want to just put this picture perfect Christmas card together to send out when everything wasn't picture perfect, you know? So I rewrote the letter, and it took me about 10 minutes, and I was bawling the whole time. John read it and he was like, this is it. That semester at church, I was taking a class and one of the requirements at the end of the class was for us to get up and share what God had been teaching us through the class and where was God taking us with the curriculum that we were going through? And I decided the best way for me to articulate what was on my heart was to read that Christmas letter out loud. So I shared that with this community that I had been walking through the last few months with and after that I was like, oh my gosh. It was freeing to be able to confess out loud what I had been holding on inside. I get up from that class and I walk to go get our kids from the nursery area, and I picked up Noah. At that point in time, I think he may have just turned three years old and if you know, three year old little boys, they don't stand next to mom's leg or hold hands, they just go sprinting off. That morning he stood next to me and walked all the way down the hallway to go get Hunter, who was about 15 months at the time. When I went to sign him out, I just had this increasing pressure in my chest and this pressure in my neck and I couldn't breathe. I was signing my name to get him out and I said, “I can't get them to my car on my own. Can you help me?” And then I said, “actually dial 911 cause I'm about to collapse.” And then I dropped to the floor in front of like 25 kids. That was one of my worst nightmares, that something would happen to me in front of my children. That's exactly what happened. That day I had suffered a heart attack and was taken to the hospital and underwent more testing and all that stuff.
That was your worst fear come true. You would go on and live with the reality that that could happen again. Where are you now with that?
God has been very kind and he has brought me to a place where I no longer fear what's going to happen to my kids if I die early. Our youngest one will start kindergarten next year, but if I don't see them graduate high school, I know they're going to be okay. The way that God has walked with me through the storms and the hard places and the valleys, I know he's going to walk with them through their hard times in their storms and in their valleys. Like God brought me to a place to know that God loves them more than I love them and he is trustworthy over their lives just like he's trustworthy over my life. God's got them.
Julie tells me all the time that if that day ever comes, which I pray it doesn't, but if it ever comes, to not be sad and to go celebrate. And I'm like, that is easy for you to say! Like you're going to be in heaven with Jesus. You are part of the group of people God's put in my life to hold my faith in place. You have seen me through seasons of doubt. You have seen me through seasons of fear. You've seen me through seasons of even fear of death. I remember looking at you once and we're sitting across from each other and I looked at you because I was struggling with doubt at the time and I said, are you 100% sure you remember? Are you 100% sure when we die that there is a God in heaven? I know this sounds crazy. I’m a Bible teacher and I know my faith is big. But I still struggle with doubt sometimes. But what did you say?
I said I’m 100% sure.
You looked right at me. I mean it was like, intense. You were like, “I am 100% sure.” And why? Why are you so sure?
Because I know it. I felt it. I’ve seen it. He's real. He's better than anything. He's the peace giver and he's the healer. He is everything and he knows that he's the best thing for us. And that's why he sent Jesus to pursue after us because he knew that one, his son, Jesus in his blood, was the only thing that was going to bring us back to him. And he knows God's the best for us. So why not live for him?
I want you to talk about what you mean. Because you have faced death. I always say people that have faced death get to tell us to not be afraid. You get to tell us that because you faced death head on.
When I had the first heart incident in the c-section with Hunter, I wasn't feeling well. I was feeling lightheaded and dizzy. And because again, all my nursing history of being in a cardiac ICU, I looked over to my heart monitor and saw that it was in a bad rhythm. I went into V-tech for eight or nine beats, and I thought, they might have to do CPR on me. But that's the last thing I remember thinking and I passed out. What I remember, and I can close my eyes and like just get back to that place, was that I was surrounded by brightness. I was surrounded by peace that I did not have to even say goodbye to my husband who's the love of my life and I never even had to lay eyes on Hunter. Where I was in the presence of God over me was enough for me to be like, he's all I want. God's all I want. It took me a long time to be able to confess that out loud of what I experienced in that moment, and I don't even know how long it was. I just remember waking up with two anesthesiologists shaking my shoulders, trying to get me to open my eyes. But it was a point of where I knew God is, I knew he has me. And I felt guilty for saying that it was okay for me to go in that moment and not be able to say goodbye to my loved ones, because God was better. Better than anything my loved ones could ever give me. Better than any friendship. I want Jesus. I want God. I want his presence and his brightness and his glory because he's worth it all. And so is there a heaven? Is there a God? Absolutely. I know when all is said and done this side of heaven, we will be there and he will create a new heaven and a new earth and we will be in the presence of God's glory forever.
I remember another story I wrote about, I think in Restless, is about being in the waiting room with you after we’ve said goodbye to Sarah Henry, who ended up living, but had a massive stroke. And we thought that would be the day she died. We all said goodbye to her that day and you walked out and you were tearing up. I said, “why are you crying?” Do you remember what you said? You said you were jealous. There was a peace over you so great that you knew she was going to be with Jesus, and that was better. You’re convinced.
Yeah, I also told her it was okay.
Because Sarah at the time had young kids too. So Julie, I, I think everybody listening right now is going okay, so this is intense to live with this, but you're not an intense person. You're one of the happiest-go-lucky people I know in the world. So talk about your given day and what it looks like to walk with Jesus in this reality, but also be so lighthearted. There's something about you that is nearly whimsical. You are just that joyful and bouncy and happy and almost childlike faith.
I like to tell people that in regards to my kids, I want them to know two things: I want them to know that Jesus loves them and I want them to know that I love them. So I want to be present with them. I want to linger a little bit longer at bed time, giving back scratches, even though I selfishly want to go climb in bed myself, I want to write them meaningful notes and prayers over them for their lunchboxes. I just want to be with them and experience their childhood along with them. Hanging out with kids is a lot of fun!
Yeah, that's exactly who you are. You’re just so present. Okay, let's go back to when things changed spiritually for you, what did that look like? By the time I met you, you would say al the time, “if God wills.” We would make plans to get lunch next week and you’d say, “if God wills.” You weren’t kidding. There was some sobriety to that statement.
I was still scared. I wanted to be a woman of my word. I still struggle with this. I don't want to say, let's plan that trip in eight months, because I don't know if I'll be around in eight months. I don’t want to make promises I can’t keep. It just helps me remember the brevity of my life. I don't want to forget the nearness of God to me in that season when I was really wrestling and wondering if I'd ever come out of darkness. Saying things like that reminds me that I can’t take life for granted. God is so present in those hard situations, whether it’s something devastating like losing a loved one or even just having a hard kid or a bad day at work. The further removed we are from being in the midst of the really hard things, the more we can shift back to independence. Shift back to “I got this. I love Jesus, but I don’t really need him everyday. I don’t need him to help me make lunches or drive kids to school or do the laundry.” But I need to need him. I’m desperate to need him and I don’t ever want to live not desperate for him again....one of my prayers that I pray really often is that God, I want to see this world through the eyes that you see it. These last few years, God’s word has become oxygen to my soul. Like we have to have breath in our lungs to breath, I need God’s word first thing in the morning. So that I know who I am, what my life is, and get God’s perspective on this world. I know if I don’t I will forget who I am and I’ll turn back into that independent person I was before. I was humbled through a health illness, and so that’s why I need God’s word.
You live the verse Paul wrote in Philippians, “to live is Christ and to die is gain” so well. When I was studying Philippians, what I loved the most was learning about Paul’s perspective. He wrote all these crazy things, but it was because of his perspective that his life was short, he was die, and that dying would be gain for him. You model that reality. The definition of faith is evidence of things hoped for. You are that for me. When I see your faith, you are evidence that I know with 100% certainty what is to come when I die. When you think about Heaven and being with Jesus, what do you think of?
Peace and joy and being satisfied, not needing anything else. Everything's going to be taken care of there. There was an acquaintance that passed away from cancer the day after Thanksgiving and her saying was “living life on purpose.” You know, she battled for three years. She was young, 10 years younger than me. She lived her life on purpose. I want to do that here. When you are living your life on purpose in light of the gospel, that means you have to focus on things other than yourself. When your eyes are seeing this world through the lens of how God sees them, things become a lot more peaceful and your trust in the Lord grows
And isn't that funny? I mean everybody listening, you won't think it's funny. It's your real life. It's your brain, it's who you are. But isn't it crazy listening to someone who should be the most anxious and they're the exact opposite. Like that's the beautiful evidence of God in you, Julie, is that you're one of the least selfish people I know. So what would you say to everybody listening right now that says, I don't know how to stop. I don't know. I want to stop today. I don't know how to stop. I don't know how to retrain my mind. I don't know how to think differently and I want to.
I opened up God's word and I started finding verses that would battle against the thoughts that were going through my head that were not from him. I had to beg God on my knees to make that truth stick in my brain. We need this everyday. We don’t just overcome anxiety or anxious thoughts or “what if” thoughts one time. What I'm struggling with right now or what I'm going through now is going to be different next week or next year or however far in the future. But God's word never changes and God's word can overlay all of those thoughts, all of those circumstances, all of those situations and hardships or everyday life things that cause us a little angst and sweaty armpits.
You’re saying Jesus when we all went self-help. We want something to fix us. A button to push or a pill we can take. We want it to be easy. But it’s not, it’s Jesus. Our job is to trust, but we also have to get to work. God talks about the armor of God and that was my reading this morning was in Ephesians 6: “finally be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might put on the whole armor of God that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil for we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God that you may be able to withstand in the evil day and having done all to stand firm.” That's my text from Julie Manning this morning.
And how might we be strong? Not by my own mind, my own willpower, or my own emotions. But by his strength. To be strong in his mind looks like surrender, a softened heart, a responsive heart, a desire for the filling of the Holy spirit. When the spirit fills me, life becomes less about me and more about Christ living for him, a soldier in his battle, fighting against the real enemy.
